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okay I

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welcome to Sputnik orbiting the world

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with me George Galloway and me gri

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having subverted Yugoslavia for decades

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Britain and the United States bombed and

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splintered the country into an alphabet

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soup of new States Serbia Montenegro

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Croatia Slovenia Bosnia herzo which then

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further broke up and then the West

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liberated Kosovo out of Serbia and

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recognized its unilateral Declaration of

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Independence in absolute Defiance of

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international law and the United Nations

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Charter I wonder how that's going this

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is of course in Stark contradiction to

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their stance on Crimea where both the US

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and the UK are intent on dragging the

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world back to Cold War over a democratic

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vote by the people of Crimea to rejoin

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Russia and the contradiction doesn't

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even make either John carry or William H

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blush and NATO enforced uh peace in

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Bosnia which has turned out not to be

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peaceful or even stable and the state of

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Bosnia herzo a rickety three-legged

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stool with three distinct ethnic groups

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rotating the presidency of the state

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looks distinctly shaky with predictions

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of a Bosnian spring now thickening the

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air now joining us is Professor David

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Chandler of Westminster University David

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uh first of all has the breakup of

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Yugoslavia been a success or a failure I

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guess the question is for who um I think

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for the Yugoslav people you could argue

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that it definitely hasn't been a success

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um but for the international

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institutions involved uh the

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organizations that needed a role after

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the end of the Cold War they found a

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whole load of tasks if you go to the

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former Yugoslavia today there's

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thousands of NOS institutions the EU

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NATO the World Bank IMF and it's a it's

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a peculiar success for those

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institutions they're still peace

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building 20 years later but it hasn't

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been a success for the people that live

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there uh of course if it were not for

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these military Financial political

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institutional uh outgrowths in the

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former Yugoslavia there' be no economy

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at all would there Bosnia 60% of the

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people of Bosnia are unemployed even

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with the presence of all these people

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there that's true and that's why I guess

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there's a lot of people there that

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wouldn't like the international

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institutions to go but um unfortunately

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once you've wrecked the cake it's very

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difficult putting it back together once

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you break it you own it unfortunately we

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don't own it but we are paying for it uh

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what's been the cost to the taxpayer uh

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in this country in the European Union of

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this period of War followed by 20 years

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of peacemaking You could argue it's been

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a huge cost to the taxpayer but then

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many other things are cost to taxpayer

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as well I think the real problem is

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probably the lack of accountability of

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how that money has been spent and where

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responsibility for failure lies and I

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think it's really unfortunate as we saw

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in the recent Serbian elections the

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protest in Bosnia there's a protest

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against local politicians when in fact

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they have very little say over

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policymaking and the EU in the

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background that's actually managing most

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of the policy and the accession process

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can then lecture those politicians and

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those people and blame them for those

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problems well let's talk about Bosnia

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first uh because there is this talk of

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Bosnian spring people are furious with

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the pathetic nature of the local

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politicians who are as you've just

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described pretty well powerless in any

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case but the tripartite nature of Bosnia

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as a state with a rotating presidency

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how's that going clearly it's not going

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well and there's elections at every

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level very often but as you say the

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politicians don't have much power and

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that makes Democratic discussion quite

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difficult it makes political

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accountability quite difficult and it's

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very unfortunate that as we've seen

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recently the the result of that has been

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I guess a revolt against the politicians

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and then that allows the EU regulation

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to be seen as somehow neutral and and

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potentially positive I think the whole

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discussion of local politicians being a

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barrier or a problem is a very

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problematic one especially coming from

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the European Union obviously not a big

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fan of democracy either

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it's not guaranteed to survive is it

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because uh the Serb part of the Bosnian

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State uh doesn't really want to be there

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and uh has recently been seeking Serbian

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and even Russian uh help to stabilize

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their situation and uh would really

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rather be in that orbit there's a lot of

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politics and a lot of political claims

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but I think because politicians don't

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have a lot of power and authority the

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ret can sometimes be very different from

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the reality on the ground and I think

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often interethnic internationalist

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disputes are then sort of blown up when

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they they don't have that much content

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we're not in the middle of a war

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situation most people realize that

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politicians can't do much to defend them

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and that's why there's such a protest

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against them but it's not as if there's

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an

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alternative uh political movement

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emerging unfortunately it's more of an

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anti-politics movement organized no and

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I think that's really the fault of the

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European Union's way that it's handled

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it um the way that policymaking is no

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longer accountable it seems that there's

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no alternative apart from joining the

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European Union the EU integration

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directorate uh manages all the

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policymaking and if you look at Bosnia

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and Kosovo I mean their flags are

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designed by the European Union they look

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like European Union Flags the national

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anthem is designed by the European Union

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it's it's really quite tragic to think

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of these countries as somehow being

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distant from the European un and their

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problems being the problems of their

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local politicians yeah let's go to

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Kosovo then um and here we have to make

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a

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comparison uh Angela mercel said that to

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compare Crimea to Kosovo is

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shameful and John Kerry and William hag

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as we said in the introduction don't

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even blush when they refuse any

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comparison between the

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two but the Western countries recognized

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the unilateral independence of Kosovo

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and are dragging us back to the Cold War

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over a democratically expressed decision

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of the people of Crimea to change their

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situation to self-determine their future

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how do you uh square that contradiction

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well first of all not all the Western

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countries have recognized Kosovo as an

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independent state there's a number of

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European union members that haven't

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recognized Kosovo so kovo status is

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already unclear in terms of

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international law let alone well the

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only legal Clarity is that the

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intervention in Kosovo was against the

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law which makes the comparison with

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Crimea a relevant and important one but

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I think the main thing has been that

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Anga merkel's position has been quite

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contradictory when you consider how the

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European Union was encouraging the

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oppositionists and undermining the

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fundamental compromise in the Ukraine

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between the West and the East and once

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there's an external intervention like

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that there's much less need for

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compromise I think it's a similar

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process that that I was saying about

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Bosnia and Kosovo where it seems that

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the EU is very distant from these

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problems but in fact has been very much

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involved well 110 countries have

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recognized kosovo's uh Independence

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that's a lot of countries uh Britain and

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the United States are gungho were gungho

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always for the breakup of Yugoslavia

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then the further breakup of Serbia first

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the breakup with Montenegro secondly the

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breakup uh between Kosovo and Serbia

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whether Serbia liked it or not so I

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suppose the point I'm making is these

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Hypocrites striding around the world and

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from TV studio to TV studio denouncing

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what's happened in Crimea even though

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they are themselves responsible for what

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has happened in Crimea they are the

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people as you say who poured petrol on a

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low Burning uh flame in Ukraine and made

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the people of Crimea believe that their

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situation was now untenable in the new

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Ukraine am I not right yeah so that's

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right obviously the fears that as you

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say were underneath the surface were um

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ignited or exaggerated by the the west

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and turn to the European Union the the

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lack of a vote uh the the threat to

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Russians speaking rights and you can

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understand those concerns and so Russia

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in the Crimea was doing little different

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I guess to what the European Union was

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doing with the the leaders in the west

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but that's often the case in countries

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with a delicate balance external

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Neighbors when they intervene in those

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politics they undermine that external

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balance and so I think the real

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hypocrisy is not so much around the

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independence but the idea that Russia is

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more undermining than the European Union

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has been it's clear that Ukraine is torn

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between those two and I think it's

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always the case that when you have EX

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internal Powers dictating the politics

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of it it's it's going to be problematic

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and unfortunately once that happens

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there's very little chance for a

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domestic process in Bosnia or Kosovo

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it's very difficult for domestic

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politics to have any relationship to

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society unless you have the authority of

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policymaking and you could maybe see it

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with the end of the Cold War with the

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Breakaway of many states in Central and

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Eastern Europe from Domination by the

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Soviet Union they didn't really have a

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chance to develop their own independent

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before integration into the European

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Union meant another type of

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dependency is the disintegration of

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Yugoslavia now complete or is it going

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to further disintegrate and are these

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places going to be going to continue to

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be burdens on the rest of us uh because

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they are essentially foreign

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protectorates I'm not sure if I would

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say that they burdens on us the burdens

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of protectorates and stuff I think that

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there's a burden for the people that

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live in the region there's a there's a

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lack of democracy a lack of possibility

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for political Alternatives but um um I

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often used to speak to Paddy ashtown who

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was the EU dictator over Bosnia for a

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long time still dictating you speaking

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in uh in Saro just this week he loves he

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loves democracy that much but his point

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was because it's our money because we're

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helping them with our taxpayers money

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they don't really have a right to decide

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what their policy should be and so I I

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really go with that idea you don't go

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for that language and I can understand

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why and believe me I ain't know py

277
00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:41,680
ashtan I don't want to intervene in the

278
00:11:39,839 --> 00:11:43,800
Affairs of the people of the Balkans and

279
00:11:41,680 --> 00:11:45,839
I don't want to pay for them either I've

280
00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:47,440
got enough to pay for here at home we've

281
00:11:45,839 --> 00:11:49,720
got enough problems of our own without

282
00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:52,120
trying to sort the streets of Saro

283
00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:54,279
that's my point only Professor we need

284
00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:56,600
to continue this discussion because this

285
00:11:54,279 --> 00:11:58,800
story is going to run and run Professor

286
00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:00,720
David Chandler thank you after the break

287
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:02,920
Sheamus mil associate editor of the

288
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:04,800
guardian and author of The Epic book The

289
00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:07,279
Enemy Within the story of thatchers

290
00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:09,000
Britain in the 1980s and Beyond joins us

291
00:12:07,279 --> 00:12:11,200
to discuss the life and death of the

292
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:15,519
greatest socialist leader of the last 50

293
00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:15,519
years in Britain Tony Ben we'll be right

294
00:12:18,079 --> 00:12:22,519
back welcome back to Sputnik the right

295
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,000
honorable Tony Ben will shortly begin

296
00:12:22,519 --> 00:12:27,360
lying in state in St Mary's undercroft

297
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,320
in The Chapel at Westminster it is a

298
00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,160
signal honor being paid to perhaps the

299
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:33,880
greatest parliamentary figure since

300
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:36,040
Charles James Fox the more remarkable

301
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,880
because Mr Ben's intentions were if not

302
00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,600
like guy Fox certainly were to

303
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,920
thoroughly cleanse the Stables of the

304
00:12:40,600 --> 00:12:45,720
British Parliament and its Unwritten but

305
00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:48,240
all too oppressive Constitution I knew

306
00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,680
him well and for 40 years I was one of

307
00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:52,440
the original benites and was at his side

308
00:12:50,680 --> 00:12:55,160
throughout his struggle for power

309
00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:57,880
ultimately unsuccessful and right behind

310
00:12:55,160 --> 00:13:00,160
him as vice president to his presidency

311
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,399
of the stop the war called tion joining

312
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,720
us to discuss The Life and Times of Mr

313
00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:06,800
Ben and the meaning of his death to the

314
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:10,360
British left his leading journalist and

315
00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:13,600
author Sheamus mil Sheamus we both knew

316
00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:16,600
Mr Ben very well for many decades uh

317
00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:18,560
let's just uh remember for a moment just

318
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,519
how great he was well he was an

319
00:13:18,560 --> 00:13:22,800
outstanding figure in British politics

320
00:13:20,519 --> 00:13:26,079
and on the left and uh one of the things

321
00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:28,760
that was so unusual about him was that

322
00:13:26,079 --> 00:13:30,320
where many people in leftwing politics

323
00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:32,199
start on on the left and move to the

324
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:34,519
right Tony Ben did the opposite he

325
00:13:32,199 --> 00:13:35,959
started as a as a sort of center right

326
00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:38,360
figure in the labor party under Hugh

327
00:13:35,959 --> 00:13:40,160
gateskill in the 1950s and he moved

328
00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:43,519
progressively towards a much more

329
00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:46,040
radical position in the 70s and 80s and

330
00:13:43,519 --> 00:13:47,880
of course he was Vindicated on the great

331
00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:51,040
issues and controversies of our time

332
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:53,360
from you know the the so-called free

333
00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:55,800
market uh system that was ushed in in

334
00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:58,079
Britain by Margaret Thatcher to the

335
00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,800
Great Western Wars that have been fought

336
00:13:58,079 --> 00:14:02,800
in the past decade or more um you know

337
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,560
he was proved right about those things

338
00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:06,360
and he had a huge following in the

339
00:14:04,560 --> 00:14:09,160
country people loved him in Britain in a

340
00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:12,199
way that perhaps no other polit

341
00:14:09,160 --> 00:14:13,480
politician today has been loved uh and

342
00:14:12,199 --> 00:14:16,600
that's because he was seen as an

343
00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:19,560
extremely honest committed principled

344
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:21,600
guy uh who' paid career-wise for

345
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:23,519
standing for what he believed in who'd

346
00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,360
voiced something on behalf of millions

347
00:14:23,519 --> 00:14:27,279
of people that had been shown to be

348
00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,279
right that had articulated the interests

349
00:14:27,279 --> 00:14:32,040
of millions of of people in the country

350
00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:34,440
and Beyond and uh and that he had

351
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:36,880
achieved things as well from you know

352
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,680
constitutional change from uh you know

353
00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:40,480
changing the rules about so he could

354
00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:43,560
stand for Parliament when he'd be become

355
00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:46,040
a hereditary peer uh to the referendum

356
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,560
on the European Union and the 1970s

357
00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,600
introducing referendums in Britain he

358
00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:53,120
was really responsible for that he was a

359
00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:55,120
key figure in in building the support

360
00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,839
for the alternative economic strategy in

361
00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,759
the

362
00:14:55,839 --> 00:15:01,600
1970s uh which really has got its Echoes

363
00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:04,040
to today in what we're trying to do in

364
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,399
relation to the the crisis and the of

365
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,480
the neoliberal order that we're living

366
00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:09,639
through at the moment and then of course

367
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:11,600
he made huge de Democratic changes in

368
00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:14,240
the labor party in the early 1980s and

369
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:16,360
was at the center of the great conflict

370
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:19,240
you know so well yeah I want to talk to

371
00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:22,959
you about that because coverage of his

372
00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:26,120
death has been relatively benign bit

373
00:15:22,959 --> 00:15:28,240
patronizing uh but relatively benign as

374
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:30,920
if he were a National Treasure but of

375
00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:33,199
course it was not ever thus when he was

376
00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:36,519
alive and kicking and struggling for

377
00:15:33,199 --> 00:15:38,399
power and almost achieving it he was the

378
00:15:36,519 --> 00:15:41,560
most hated man in Britain if you

379
00:15:38,399 --> 00:15:43,680
believed the mass media which spent

380
00:15:41,560 --> 00:15:45,959
Acres of newsprint to tell us that Not

381
00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:48,639
only was he bad he was almost certainly

382
00:15:45,959 --> 00:15:51,279
mad I mean it's incredible when you you

383
00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:54,160
think back to that time uh in the 70s

384
00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:56,600
and the 80s when uh many people in power

385
00:15:54,160 --> 00:15:58,680
and positions of privilege in Britain uh

386
00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:02,759
thought that Ben was going to lead some

387
00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:04,959
kind of uh Revolution uh constitutional

388
00:16:02,759 --> 00:16:06,600
or otherwise against them uh and that he

389
00:16:04,959 --> 00:16:08,440
stood for something that was really

390
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,920
about to come to power and was very

391
00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:13,880
challenging to their interests and uh he

392
00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:15,680
was absolutely Savaged in the media uh

393
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,560
in which there's few Parallels for the

394
00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:19,000
the level of attack I think that he

395
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,639
suffered I mean as you were saying I

396
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,440
mean it was quite a regular feature in

397
00:16:20,639 --> 00:16:25,319
some of the Tabloid papers in Britain in

398
00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:27,959
the 70s and80s for them to dig out some

399
00:16:25,319 --> 00:16:29,519
cod psychiatrist to say it's not just

400
00:16:27,959 --> 00:16:32,160
that Tony Ben seemed to be mad he was

401
00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:34,319
actually clinically mad uh and this used

402
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:36,120
to attribute it to his excessive tea

403
00:16:34,319 --> 00:16:39,040
drinking tea drinking he was a very

404
00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:43,279
committed tea drinker uh throughout his

405
00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:45,120
life and pipe smoker um no he was uh he

406
00:16:43,279 --> 00:16:47,319
was treated

407
00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,720
unbelievably aggressively and violently

408
00:16:47,319 --> 00:16:52,199
and because they were afraid of him they

409
00:16:48,720 --> 00:16:56,519
were uh because he had two things uh

410
00:16:52,199 --> 00:16:59,160
some have one few have both he had a

411
00:16:56,519 --> 00:17:01,519
very clear political line and direct

412
00:16:59,160 --> 00:17:03,759
that he wished to travel but he had a

413
00:17:01,519 --> 00:17:07,240
mass Following also I mean I've been

414
00:17:03,759 --> 00:17:10,240
with him 30 years ago in uh Motorway

415
00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:11,760
service stations where the entire

416
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:14,079
kitchen staff would come out to get his

417
00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:16,079
autograph all the customers in the

418
00:17:14,079 --> 00:17:18,000
cafeteria would gather around him he

419
00:17:16,079 --> 00:17:21,039
would stand up on a chair and give an

420
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:25,079
impromptu speech this was a man with a

421
00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:28,120
mass following in the country and a very

422
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:29,840
very radical uh political take so they

423
00:17:28,120 --> 00:17:32,400
really feared The Establishment really

424
00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:35,039
feared that this man could actually take

425
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:37,080
power and if he takes power he might be

426
00:17:35,039 --> 00:17:40,000
right when he says I say what I mean and

427
00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:42,280
I mean what I say uh do you think they

428
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,880
were right to be afraid of him how

429
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,919
revolutionary was Tony Ben well he

430
00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,000
always said himself I'm not a

431
00:17:45,919 --> 00:17:48,760
revolutionary and no one is a

432
00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:51,160
revolutionary in Britain but I think

433
00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,799
that he he was just he didn't want to

434
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,200
give didn't want to frighten the horses

435
00:17:52,799 --> 00:17:58,080
fr the give undue AES and Graces to what

436
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:59,760
he was doing I I think he wanted to see

437
00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:02,600
profound transformation a profound

438
00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:04,480
transformation of British Society uh he

439
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,159
he clearly he was anti- capitalist he

440
00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,960
wanted to see a transformation of way

441
00:18:06,159 --> 00:18:10,600
the economies run who owns and controls

442
00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,480
it he was a a great Democrat he believed

443
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,320
in the power of democracy at all levels

444
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:17,520
of society um in the workplace as well

445
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:19,159
as in The Ballot Box and uh and he he

446
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,640
was genuinely and people understood that

447
00:18:19,159 --> 00:18:22,159
I think that he was genuinely very very

448
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:24,039
committed to the Democratic

449
00:18:22,159 --> 00:18:27,360
transformation of life so no I think

450
00:18:24,039 --> 00:18:31,360
they were right to fear Him uh I think

451
00:18:27,360 --> 00:18:33,440
you know in a way um he he came to his

452
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:36,000
prominence and the peak of his power at

453
00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:37,280
a time when the left was on the cusp uh

454
00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,880
not only in Britain but throughout the

455
00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:42,320
world of entering into a period of of of

456
00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,919
long of long-standing retreat which

457
00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:46,280
we're only just coming out of now I

458
00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:48,200
think uh you know he was the peak of his

459
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,440
poers in the 70s and the 80s and of

460
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:51,000
course that was followed by the collapse

461
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,360
of the Soviet Union The Retreat of the

462
00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:56,120
left throughout the world um the you

463
00:18:53,360 --> 00:18:57,919
know the breakup of of uh the organized

464
00:18:56,120 --> 00:18:59,320
working-class movement in many countries

465
00:18:57,919 --> 00:19:01,640
but as I say I think since the

466
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,679
particularly since the crash of 2008 I

467
00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,840
think that we we're in a different era

468
00:19:03,679 --> 00:19:09,159
and I think he lived to see the time

469
00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:11,200
when you know socialist ideas uh and

470
00:19:09,159 --> 00:19:13,600
Progressive ideas that he stood for are

471
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,080
once once again you know getting a mass

472
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,919
following and for example in parts of

473
00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,960
the world like Latin America and of

474
00:19:16,919 --> 00:19:20,720
course he was loved all over the world I

475
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:23,039
mean not just in Britain I someone was

476
00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,919
telling me the other day uh who was a a

477
00:19:23,039 --> 00:19:26,280
friend of fuga Chavis the former

478
00:19:24,919 --> 00:19:27,919
Venezuelan president that whenever he

479
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,559
turned up in Caracus and saw Chavis

480
00:19:27,919 --> 00:19:32,960
Chavis would say ah Richard how is Tony

481
00:19:30,559 --> 00:19:34,559
Ben uh that's what Chavis wanted to know

482
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,080
because he had followed Tony Ben's

483
00:19:34,559 --> 00:19:38,919
career and his ideas and his as you say

484
00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:41,240
his Mass following his ability to

485
00:19:38,919 --> 00:19:42,760
popularize socialist ideas and

486
00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:45,080
Progressive ideas in a way that could

487
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:47,440
appeal to people in simple aoristic

488
00:19:45,080 --> 00:19:50,720
terms and he was a great communicator

489
00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:52,840
Jus uh I met um Miss Tony Ben a couple

490
00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:55,640
of times and the last time he even had

491
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:59,600
his his pipe with him indoors oh doesn't

492
00:19:55,640 --> 00:20:02,320
matter but he was he was an unrepentant

493
00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,520
no smoking laws meant nothing to T

494
00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:07,360
revolutionary he he was getting ready to

495
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:09,919
get on stage with his pip be amazing

496
00:20:07,360 --> 00:20:11,559
very kind adorable man and how was he

497
00:20:09,919 --> 00:20:12,799
personally in how did you know him

498
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:15,840
personally yeah I think he was an

499
00:20:12,799 --> 00:20:17,520
incredibly kind guy and he was uh you

500
00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:19,799
know he was completely without side to

501
00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,799
him he would deal with anyone whether

502
00:20:19,799 --> 00:20:24,919
they were a president or or the person

503
00:20:22,799 --> 00:20:27,039
working in the kitchens uh in the same

504
00:20:24,919 --> 00:20:28,640
way he treated everyone with respect and

505
00:20:27,039 --> 00:20:30,600
people understood that and they saw that

506
00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:32,400
you know he some young person would come

507
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,600
and start button H holding him about

508
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,000
something and he would listen to them

509
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,600
and take them seriously there's the

510
00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:41,000
famous story that is been replayed a lot

511
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:43,679
in recent days of uh how the comedian

512
00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,919
Ali G tried to set him up for a

513
00:20:43,679 --> 00:20:47,280
humiliation of course even Tony Ben took

514
00:20:45,919 --> 00:20:48,760
it completely seriously and said oh

515
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,600
these things you're saying are quite

516
00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:52,559
wrong you know you shouldn't uh talk

517
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,919
about women like that and so on and in

518
00:20:52,559 --> 00:20:55,520
the end Tony Ben got the better of it

519
00:20:53,919 --> 00:20:59,280
without even realizing it was a comedy

520
00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:01,600
sketch so he was I think he was a really

521
00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:04,360
a a very very kind and generous person a

522
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,840
very serious person who took people um

523
00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:09,039
you know act completely on their own

524
00:21:06,840 --> 00:21:11,760
merits but he also had a sense of humor

525
00:21:09,039 --> 00:21:14,000
and uh that came out a lot as well so I

526
00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:15,559
mean I described the other day like the

527
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,559
kindly Old Gentleman at the back of the

528
00:21:15,559 --> 00:21:19,279
train and the railway children the Old

529
00:21:17,559 --> 00:21:21,480
Gentleman used to wave his handkerchief

530
00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:24,640
at the kids and then help to solve their

531
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:28,080
crisis that's uh the kind of uh man that

532
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:30,559
he was but he's gone now perhaps the

533
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:34,120
single charismatic leader of which he

534
00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:37,320
was a perfect example uh will not be

535
00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:41,279
easily replicated and maybe shouldn't be

536
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:42,960
cuz after all uh uh leaders can come and

537
00:21:41,279 --> 00:21:46,480
and can go and there are many parts of

538
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:49,360
the world too where placing all one's uh

539
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:52,600
hope and uh and uh faith in in one

540
00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:55,679
person can often be uh dangerous that's

541
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:57,720
completely true I mean but in a way in

542
00:21:55,679 --> 00:22:00,640
the left in Britain we've had a number

543
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:02,840
of uh of charismatic leaders uh we've

544
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:04,200
been fortunate to to have that you know

545
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:06,360
in the in the period we were talking

546
00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:08,080
about uh in the 70s and ' 80s you know

547
00:22:06,360 --> 00:22:10,080
we had people in trade unionism like

548
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,200
Arthur Scargill we had people in local

549
00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:14,880
government like Ken Livingston who

550
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:16,880
became the focus for these mass

551
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:20,120
movements of for Change and Tony Ben and

552
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:23,159
others and uh I think you know real life

553
00:22:20,120 --> 00:22:24,559
throws up these people and sometimes uh

554
00:22:23,159 --> 00:22:26,679
you know people who've been one thing

555
00:22:24,559 --> 00:22:28,760
like Ben was early on his career when

556
00:22:26,679 --> 00:22:30,880
there's a movement which is drawing Mass

557
00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,600
support they get they gravitate towards

558
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,919
it themselves as he did um so people who

559
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,200
are one thing at one time can then play

560
00:22:35,919 --> 00:22:40,400
a different role in another period And I

561
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:43,080
mean I think we you know of course you

562
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,679
shouldn't put your faith in in single

563
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,640
leaders or charismatic leaders for for

564
00:22:44,679 --> 00:22:48,799
the reasons you said and many others but

565
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,159
but of course we need people to

566
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:53,840
articulate the mood and the spirit and

567
00:22:51,159 --> 00:22:56,760
the ideas and the movements of our time

568
00:22:53,840 --> 00:22:58,520
and the way Progressive ideas and and

569
00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:00,720
demands of our time need to be

570
00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,600
articulated and we need people to do

571
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:05,240
that at all levels of the movement all

572
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,880
levels of society both in Parliament and

573
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:10,039
in trade unions in social movements and

574
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,360
I think those people arise and are

575
00:23:10,039 --> 00:23:12,480
arising and that's not just happening in

576
00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:15,840
Britain it's happening in other

577
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:18,400
countries as well so Tony Ben died and

578
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:20,039
uh Bob Crow but they they are being

579
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,120
replaced and will be replaced by other

580
00:23:20,039 --> 00:23:24,640
people and I think that's not our our

581
00:23:22,120 --> 00:23:27,799
problem our problem is to find a way in

582
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:29,880
this time to articulate and take forward

583
00:23:27,799 --> 00:23:32,120
those ideas and those interests in

584
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,880
society which have been so denied a real

585
00:23:32,120 --> 00:23:36,200
voice in politics for the last

586
00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:37,919
generation I think that is happening and

587
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:40,640
it's happening all over the world and

588
00:23:37,919 --> 00:23:43,000
it's also happening here as Jara said it

589
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,880
matters not that I fall what matters is

590
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:48,200
how many come forward to pick up my

591
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:50,940
rifle AB remembering Tony Ben Sheamus M

592
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,520
of the Guardian thank you very

593
00:23:50,940 --> 00:23:55,279
[Music]

594
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:57,640
much now it's your turn to tell us what

595
00:23:55,279 --> 00:23:59,039
you think in the social media Roundup

596
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,440
what's rattling guy

597
00:23:59,039 --> 00:24:04,640
so Tony Ben is no more so what is left

598
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:07,559
of the left Jack Tipple says very much

599
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:10,799
still alive as much now as ever just

600
00:24:07,559 --> 00:24:13,960
woefully under represented in Parliament

601
00:24:10,799 --> 00:24:16,799
and Peach says as long as socialism is

602
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:19,640
seen as a dirty W the battle continues

603
00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:21,240
the left needs to come together now we

604
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:23,799
don't have to call it socialism could

605
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:26,520
call it social democracy we can just

606
00:24:23,799 --> 00:24:28,840
call it for each individual policy yeah

607
00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:31,559
because it is indeed a dirty word yeah

608
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,559
uh well up to a point uh I was once

609
00:24:31,559 --> 00:24:36,960
present at a conversation between Fidel

610
00:24:33,559 --> 00:24:39,720
Castro and the late uh Hugo Chavez in

611
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:42,720
which Fidel Believe It or Not uh

612
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:46,520
suggested to Chavez to stop talking

613
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:48,480
about socialism just do socialist things

614
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:50,720
people will like them then later you can

615
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:53,720
explain to them regarding the former

616
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:56,520
Yugoslavia shafat Rashid says Russia was

617
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:59,520
right recognizing independence of Kosovo

618
00:24:56,520 --> 00:25:01,520
opened up a whole Pandora books which

619
00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,840
later came to hunt the West regarding

620
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:06,640
Crimea well I mean they're just

621
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:09,200
Hypocrites you cannot possibly say that

622
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:11,640
Kosovo has the right to unilaterally

623
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:14,200
illegally against the United Nations

624
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:17,720
Charter and international law declare

625
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:21,240
itself to be independent but that Crimea

626
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:24,000
cannot it's just sheer total utter

627
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:25,080
hypocrisy shameful as Mrs Merkel might

628
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,840
say but they're the other way around the

629
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:28,840
other way around yeah okay well that's

630
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,760
it for this week well that means

631
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,279
unfortunately that's all we've got time

632
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:35,039
for you know where to reach us on

633
00:25:32,279 --> 00:25:37,799
Twitter rtor Sputnik and on Facebook you

634
00:25:35,039 --> 00:25:39,880
can like us on Sputnik on Russia today

635
00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:42,600
it's goodbye from me gri and from me

636
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:50,589
George Galloway it's been marvelous

637
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:50,589
[Music]